Since arriving back in the UK, my fortunes have remained somewhat strained. The work I was promised has fizzeld to nothing and I am still claiming Job Seeker’s Allowance. I am also going through the sheer pain of dealing with South Gloucestershire Council’s benefits department. This week I was informed that having equity in a French house means that I am not entitled to council tax benefit. Someone, somewhere in the bureaucratic machine that is sited on planet Zog decided that equity is the same thing as money and having that equity means that I have a magic money tree with which to pay them.
To be fair to the woman at the council offices that I spoke to, she understood and advised that I must appeal in writing against the decision. As we are attempting to sell the property we are doing all that we reasonably can to liquidate our assets. It is not our fault that the stasis in the French property market mirrors that in the UK.
It’s bad enough, all of this – along with trying to seek work. But today what pops through the letterbox? Why, a satisfaction survey from South Gloucestershire Council.
Words fail me – but if they want to make cuts, I can suggest a starting point…
We already have taxpayer funded satisfaction surveys. They are called elections.
And in the intervening period it should be councillors getting of their allowance grabbing arses and knocking on doors in their wards to stay abreast of local concerns about service delivery.
But this is symptomatic of council officers wanting to be in control, rather than merely carrying out the wishes of elected members.
It’s far quicker doing a list of things the government doesn’t need to cut, to be honest.
As to the substantive issue, I actually agree with them. If we’re going to means-test for cash in hand or cash income, why not means test for housing wealth as well? In fact, we’d be better off if we only means-tested for housing wealth and ignored cash in hand and cash income.
The problem, though – as I pointed out to the woman at the council offices – is that I have no money. Equity is not cash, it is not wealth, it is, in fact, not real money at all unless you sell the property. And if you cannot sell the property because the market is static, you go round in circles. What part of “I have no money” do they not understand? I cannot pay the council tax in bricks and mortar. In fact, I cannot pay the council tax because I have no money. That is the long and the short of it. Means test all you like, it won’t change the fact that I have no money.
Write them out a promissory note. You can copy the wording on any UK banknote or make your own up. Send it in and have some fun.
The suggestion that the equity in your french house is actually worth something tangible is bordering on the ridiculus.
A property is only worth as much as a person is willing to pay for it. If no one wants to buy your house then it isnt worth a penny.
How they imagine you can pay your council tax with a house is beyond me
Precisely.
Perhaps you could declare that the amount of Council Tax equals 0.01% of the value of your French property (a yard of fence or something) and offer to pay with that?
What I have done as part of my appeal is to offer to pay the outstanding tax in full when the house is sold. I consider that to be a reasonable offer and if they take me to court, I suspect that the court would consider it a reasonable offer, too.
Maybe you should ask a realistic price for your house in France? Equity is realisable wealth. Why should we pay for you to have two houses?
I hate to be a doom monger but the reason this rule exists is a simple one. It is to prevent people from owning a home that they rent out (keeping the rent or using it to pay a mortgage) and then claiming housing benefit/council tax benefit on another property that they rent for them selves. In short it is to prevent people from scamming the system and getting the tax payer to pay a mortgage on a property that the owner then sells and keeps any profit on. As far as the benefits system thinks, people claiming benefits should only have one property and they should live in that property. It’s also why home owners that try to claim benefits will only have the interest on a mortgage paid and not the mortgage itself.
Mummy x
Why didn’t you just lie. Millions do and they don’t regret it.
Mummy, yes, I understand. However, every case is individual and the system should have the flexibility to cope with that. As it was, we did consider renting, but that wouldn’t have helped much as we would have been making a loss – the rent would have almost matched the mortgage payment and we would still have owed the Tax Fonciere. And, having rented out our UK property for two years, I don’t think I would ever want to rent out my home again.
We are asking a realistic price. As it is, we stand to make a loss of around £10,000. As I said, the market is static. Therefore the equity is not realisable until the market starts to move again.
I started work in 1979. I’ve been working pretty much continuously since then. Even during brief periods of unemployment I didn’t make any claims on the benefit system. I’ve paid in thousands over those thirty years, so you aren’t paying anything towards the pittance I am now getting back, so don’t you dare presume to fucking lecture me about it, thank-you very much. And, given that you are in fucking Australia, the charge that you are paying for me is pretty fucking rich you arrogant arsehole.
Gordo, if we had lied, then yes, they would have known nothing about it. So we are learning a painful lesson. Being new to all of this, we are discovering that it’s a whole new world and I don’t much like it. The sooner I can get some reliable work, the better, frankly.
I too wish there was an individualised (is that a word?) system. I am currently occupying a privately rented house that costs £680 a month in rent alone. A distant cousin inherited a house several years ago, moved into it and put their mortgaged house up for rent. They were happy to rent it to me for £250 a month (mates rates etc) but HB said no, can’t rent off family. They would rather pay my Landlord (who found himself in the exact same position) £680 a month instead.
The system still gets milked but it is by those that are less than honest but more than blessed with large extended families that have, amongst them, more surnames than British Birth Certificates.
I will no doubt get called a racist (burn her, burn her) for this comment but when you have been in the system as long as I have (6 years now), it becomes quite obvious, after a while that whilst the lines at Job Centre Plus are full of white, single, teenage Mums screaming about JSA and Milk Tokens and white teenage men sobbing that their Grandma died (for the fifth time in 3 months) and that’s why they couldn’t sign on last Tuesday the line at Housing Benefit/Council Tax Benefit consists of Ladies of Ethnic Origin putting in yet another claim for Housing Support and a few OAP’s that have decided to retire at retirement age and are attempting (and no doubt failing) to claim Housing support).
Heck this comment has damn near turned into a post. In fact, if you don’t mind LR, I may just post about this over at my place.
Mummy x
I am on a learning curve with this one. As mentioned earlier, I’ve been working and paying in for the past thirty years, so this has all come as a rude shock to the system.
I’m becoming increasingly angry at the indifference and incompetence inherent in the system. I am also angry at the ill-informed, self-righteous twaddle such as the comment from JACKED OFF above, but you probably guessed as much 😉
I’m with Gordo on this.
By the way, if you did sell your French house, they would only make you live on the proceeds until it was all gone.
Maybe best to drop your claim, leave it a few days, then get Mrs LR to make exactly the same claim. But this time lie.
It’s not advice I feel proud about giving, but you have paid in all these years – it’s YOUR money that you are asking them for. Sometimes you just have to “play the system” to get it.
Hope things pick up.
There’s a flaw in that cunning plan, it’s a joint claim.
If we sell the French house, the debts will get paid off and anything left over – if there is anything will pay off some of the capital on our UK mortgage. So, actually, it isn’t wealth at all. It isn’t money we can realise and use, let alone live on.
A couple of shitbags that lived near me had a habit of “separating” every year or so. Despite both working and paying a mortgage they seemed able to scam the system for cash without losing anything.
There may still be time to be “creative”.
Sticks in my throat having to make these suggestions, but life can be an unfair place and sometimes one has to do things against ones better nature to hang in there.
You should lower your asking price to meet the market. Save yourself a lot of grief when the property prices continue on down. I’m pretty well-informed. And a short comment does not constitute a lecture. That’s what you do. Well. You don’t cope with criticism though. Shucks. Excuse me, but are you a libertarian..seeking freedom from the state? Or is that just when it suits?
I am also well informed. The French market is in stasis. Estate agents are going out of business. I cannot reduce the price below what it currently is or I cannot pay off my debts. The price we are asking is more than reasonable. There is always a bottom line no matter what people claim the market says. As I pointed out to you, we already stand to lose over £10,000. I fail to see why we should give complete strangers even more of the savings I put into that place, because that is effectively what you are suggesting. I need that money. Every penny.
As for my irritation, complaining that you are paying for my benefits ignores that fact that I have already paid several thousands more than I am claiming. It’s also insufferably self-righteous. It’ll take me decades of claiming before you contribute a shekel towards my upkeep, not least that being in Australia you won’t be anyway.
Again, you seek to lecture me. I have no choice but to operate within the system, whatever my ideological beliefs. Given that I lost my work in April last year and have only now sought help – help that I have already paid for over the past thirty years, I have stuck to those beliefs for as long as I possibly could, so getting a bit stroppy with facile comments like yours is pretty mild, frankly.
If you’d said “have you considered lowering the price?” You would have received a different response. And if you had refrained from pompously telling me that you were paying for me to keep two houses when you most certainly are not, you would have not been on the sharp end of my tongue. It has nothing to do with my ability to take constructive criticism and everything to do with annoyance at ill-informed and arrogant comment.