I wasn’t going to comment on 9/11 because, quite frankly, I am already sick of the coverage. It happened. It was tragic. It was ten years ago, so get over it and move on.
However, OoL has descended into the wild conspiracy theories (again, unfortunately) and this site being partly my creation, I feel perhaps I must comment. The latest post by luikkerland carries a title that I hoped would be an exploration of the absurdities of extreme religious fervour;
“As Voltaire said, those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”.
After all, the belief system inherent in Islam is pretty absurd and people do believe in it and some of them do go on and murder in its name. But, no this isn’t about Bin Laden’s fruitcake followers, it’s about the USA, we have another false flag theory trotted out, FFS!
It is becoming tedious having to constantly remind people – although I do admire Angry Exile’s patience in doing so – that the official version follows Occam’s Razor. Sure, it is flawed. Sure there are anomalies. I expect anomalies. Anomalies, however, are not evidence of malfeasance and they are certainly not evidence of a false flag operation costing the lives of around 3,000 innocents. And, frankly, I am not remotely interested in the minutiae of those anomalies. They are irrelevant as is the disagreement between two experts with differing views. What happened, happened and it wasn’t George Bush wot dun it.
I recall some years back having to carry out an investigation in the aftermath of a near derailment following a landslide. As I trawled through the voice recordings and contemporaneous notes, it became apparent that there was a mismatch. Times didn’t line up. Sometimes there were minor inaccuracies about who talked to whom and when. So, for the most part, I went with the voice recordings, despite the gaps caused by some phones not being recorded. The person coordinating events was dealing with multiple problems caused by the bad weather; land slips, flooding, track circuit failures, points failures and so on. He was clearly overloaded. In the event, he made an error of judgement, which given the workload was unsurprising. My point, however, is that anyone looking at the evidence will find holes all over the place. It is normal in the aftermath of an incident, even minor ones, to discover gaps and irregularities in the evidence. So much is happening at any one time, it is difficult to keep pace with it and record it accurately.
Another event, one that I managed, involved a derailed train. A relatively minor event in the scheme of things and nothing like the scale of the Paddington crash, let alone the Twin Towers, yet still we had people crawling out of the woodwork trampling all over my evidence. Long before the police showed up to help me cordon it off, I was trying to get people off the site, deal with corporate affairs, the signaller and control, arrange with the TOC to get passengers back to the station and on with their journeys and the recovery engineers to arrange removal of the damaged stock, not to mention the track engineers to arrange a possession for repair works to the infrastructure – everyone wanted a piece of me all at once. In the middle of all of this, the local operations manager wanted me to ask the TOC to sign an indemnity form agreeing that their traction had caused the derailment. I refused as we had no idea what had caused it – not having even started an investigation at that point. As it turned out to be a fault in the track, it was just as well.
While all this was going on, I was attempting to keep contemporaneous notes. Anyone looking at the evidence afterwards will have found gaps and mismatches between these and any voice recordings. Indeed, they could have made a case for Railtrack deliberately causing the derailment so as to blame it on the TOC thereby diverting attention from the dire state of the trackwork that had caused a number of previous minor derailments and had the HMRI breathing down our necks.
So, having been involved with incident management and emergency planning (and peripherally with London Resilience), I am well aware that anomalies in the official versions are not only normal, they are to be expected. Every 9/11 conspiracy theory has been thoroughly debunked, yet still we get the peddling of these myths.
9/11 was the consequence of a group of jihadists hijacking some aircraft, and flying them into their targets. Yes, it was difficult and audacious. Yes it was risky, but given the failure of the authorities to coordinate their intelligence gathering, they remained under the radar and pulled it off. What happened afterwards with the crackdown on liberty and the war on terror was pure opportunism. All the rest is just a diversion. The idea mentioned in luikkerland’s post that the USA did it using a drone is so absurd it leaves me speechless (almost) that anyone can fall for such lunacy.
Can we leave the 9/11 conspiracies alone now, please?
Can we leave the 9/11 conspiracies alone now, please?
Buckley’s chance, mate. It might not be the most popular subset of conspiracy theorising but people are still talking about Abraham Lincoln’s assassination. That’s nearly 150 years ago FFS. Was the Illuminati involved in both his killing and that of JFK to help cover up the moon landings having been faked in a movie studio on Mars? It’s not going to stop so I’ll carry on alternating between taking the mick and asking what motive there is for going about things in such an amazingly risky and OTT way.
Yeah, I know…
I suppose, having had real world experience of incident management, I am acutely aware that gaps in the evidence are normal and natural, that I tend to lose patience with the theorising.
I too have real world experience… of demolition and I can say with the utmost confidence based on the video evidence, for I was not there to witness it in person, WTC7 was demolished.
However I have no idea why, nor by who, other than the fact the building was rigged by experts as it came down within its own footprint which is the ideal aimed for with all multifloor building demolitions.
The clincial demolitioin of WTC7 throws everything else wide open in my humble but other than that I have no answers.
Even if you are there in person it is not always possible to work out eactly what has happened as you yourself allude to with your derailng eample but somethings are exactly what they appear to be.
Yes, some things are as they appear to be, which is what I’ve been saying.
The controlled demolition story has been successfully debunked.
As ever we get polorisation. People will see what they want to see and think what they want to think regardless of what really happens.
I bow to your superior demolition knowledge ‘has been debunked’ and return to the ether.
I’m not seeing anything. But then, I’m not positing a conspiracy theory.
And, yes, the controlled demolition theory has been thoroughly debunked.
I’m well aware that trying to engage on these issues is usually pointless: it’s like a hall of mirrors where every question finds itself reflected and distorted twenty times and you end up going mad.
But I’ve never understood the central absurdity of the 9/11 conspiracy theories. If you are going to mount a false-flag operation as an excuse to start a war to secure oil reserves in the Middle East, then a number of things strike me:
1. Why plant charges in a building that you’re about to fly a wide-bodied jet aircraft into? Would hijacking four aircraft and killing 3000 not have been sufficient casus belli anyway? Why take the risk?
2. Why take the terrible risk of being exposed just in order to bring about a controlled demolition of a building, WTC7, that no one has ever heard of or gives a shit about?
3. (for the real loons who think there were no hijackings at all) why use drones, holograms or what have you, disappear all those innocent people who were supposedly killed that day, and so on – why not just, you know, fly a wide-bodied jet aircraft into a building?
4. Has anyone ever tried to estimate how many people would have had to have been “in on it” to mount a US / Mossad / lizard men false flag operation and then successfully pin it on the Muslims? Hundreds? Thousands?
5. Having successfully fooled everybody into backing the war you’d always wanted to fight, wouldn’t you go and invade a country with actual, you know, oil in it? Why would you pin it on Saudi citizens and then go off and occupy Kabul?
I’m now hating myself for even engaging with these people. James Higham, if you’re reading this – cut out the 9/11 Truth nonsense on OoL, it’s making the site look bad.
Yup, me too. I resisted, honest, I did. The drone fuckwittery was just too much.
Ditto. That said, we set out with an open platform policy. It’s biting us on the bum, I’m afraid.
It’s not biting you on the bum. The open platform helps make it a great site.
The open comments also helps discuss issues that may be junk and show them up as such.
The best thing that ever happened for Governments, was the “conspiracy theory”.
They can do what they like, within seconds the web is FULL of conspiracy about it, and even if the truth DOES leak out, no one gives a fuck, or can even TELL, because there are so many tin foil hatters willing to muddy the waters and make any independant investigation to a pointless exersize.
It is like hiring a stage crowd to trample all over a murder scene before the police get there, and the Government does not even have to pay the “Equity” rate for the actors.
“Can we leave the 9/11 conspiracies alone now, please?”
OK.
Now, about JFK… 😉
“I suppose, having had real world experience of incident management, I am acutely aware that gaps in the evidence are normal and natural..”
Ahhh, but most people get their investigative experience from TV, where there’s always a clue that leads to a resolution!
Look at the suspicion cast on the fact that there was no DNA found on the gun or sock in the Duggan case.
And I agree with Bucko. It’s not harming us at all.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and we can’t be for liberty and openness and close down debate. That just feeds conspiracy theories (which as FT points out, are a godsend to any real dirty tricks operation!).
Islam can be destroyed non-violently.
That was the Hive.
Look at it this way. There are things government don’t want us to talk about. Over population, the ageing population problem, depletion of mineral and water reserves, possible food shortages etc. etc.
So they love a good conspiracy theory like 9/11 or the climate science scam. It keeps our attention focused anywhere but on what should concern us.
As Shakespeare put it in Henry IV part 2:
“Therefore my Harry, be it thy course bo busy giddly minds with foreign quarrels?”
Good tctic and obviously it still works.
Erm ..
Climate science is NOT a scam.
There is a scam, and it is a government one.
Raising extra taxes in the name of climate change, and actually doing nothing useful at all.
Which makes me so annoyed, because people confuse the two.
I despair every time I see another new conspiracy theory post cropping up on OoL. It does detract from what the site could be and could achieve. But that is the nature of a genuinely liberal site; people get to print what they want, even if it is largely meaningless bilge.